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Post by CamelJock on Mar 19, 2021 2:23:36 GMT
I'm putting up the same map as last week, but with non-repairing targets this time. One side or the other should win this time.
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Post by raf56bowman on Mar 20, 2021 22:29:35 GMT
The Allies won shortly after Swampfox left. About 2 hour game. Loads of fun as always.
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TARbo
Members
Lazy Ace
Posts: 61
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Post by TARbo on Mar 21, 2021 0:00:21 GMT
I apologize for my behavior. I was out of my mind. I had a bad attitude this morning and it stuck with me through the game. Next time I have a bad attitude, I'll wait until it clears before I join. "A prudent man conceals knowledge, But the heart of fools proclaims foolishness." Proverbs 12:23 NKJV
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Post by halibut on Mar 21, 2021 5:43:19 GMT
I apologize for my behavior. I was out of my mind. I had a bad attitude this morning and it stuck with me through the game. Next time I have a bad attitude, I'll wait until it clears before I join. "A prudent man conceals knowledge, But the heart of fools proclaims foolishness." Proverbs 12:23 NKJV I got to say tarbo, if you think you where badly behaved, you really have to lift your game.  ...in the "good old days" i emptied a server with 20 people in, when me and rebel went at it.... ah memories. |
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Post by raf56bowman on Mar 21, 2021 12:22:00 GMT
Yes, I was going to say that yesterday was nothing compared to some of the things we saw years ago! No worries Tarbo, we're glad to have you join us.
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Post by Swampfox on Mar 21, 2021 15:01:30 GMT
Two people emailed me and said I left the war too soon. As always, it does not matter which side wins, because it is always so much fun.
HOWEVER, there was no win....the game is rigged (with good intentions, but with an unfixed glitch), which was the point of running a non-repair target setup for all to observe and experience. The new and the rest of us players got to see, to experience, two of Multiplayer's worse glitches: flame boot and target hardening. The rig is against everyone, as it can happen to either side. Technically target hardening was intended to prevent people re-lifing without returning to base after bombing at least 50% of any given target..they didn't realize it screwed the game when executed by one or more pilots being bad in a specific way.
We appear to have an effective solution to the flame glitch through Ace's Start/boot prevention downloadable program. This is about target hardening. We could benefit with there being some way to make sure everyone is flying with Ace's upgrade without it "scaring" anyone away.
Had ownership of the game been managed, those and other glitches and improvement opportunities would have, could have been, a low-cost effort...but nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.
If even one target in the stock 8-8 target scenario hardens, "all" that is left is the fun, as there is no winner.
So, that's the problem. An approach to solve the issue has been figured out, with its solution underway and being tested with a wonderful "new" combination of existing technical formulae.
I will put up a new thread. to outline this opportunity.
Swampfox
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Post by raf56bowman on Mar 21, 2021 18:30:39 GMT
I have not been involved with all the testing that some have done, but I feel that it is often prematurely declared that a target is hardened, when it's actually not. Yesterday it was declared that the southern Allied dump was hardened....are we sure? Was every trench, MG nest, cannon nest, tent, destroyed? I believe that many times, when all buildings are destroyed, someone will say "well that target is hardened", when in fact one more trench (which being flat, are hard to tell, and hard to hit), or gun nest will then drop the target. I have dropped dromes by only bombing the trenches and gun nests. It's not easy but makes for great bombing practice.
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TARbo
Members
Lazy Ace
Posts: 61
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Post by TARbo on Mar 21, 2021 18:56:56 GMT
I found a hardened target yesterday-the upper german drome-destroyed all of the big building and it didn't go down. But, like you mentioned Cavu, I didn't try the bunkers and tents.
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TARbo
Members
Lazy Ace
Posts: 61
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Post by TARbo on Mar 21, 2021 19:34:40 GMT
Thanks, Halubut and Cavu.
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Post by Swampfox on Mar 21, 2021 23:22:16 GMT
Its absolutely true that many a target has fallen when secondary buildings are taken down after all larger buildings are flat. This target was hit by some of the best bombers and when they think it is hardened after seeing that everything has been hit....odds are it is hardened. Odds are.
The point remains that target hardening destroys a non repair target server. OTOH...non repair target bombing can be its own unique experience, strategically and tactically
I saw the south target 4 times...that sucker was smashed with nothing untouched. Many have heard me calling out that the drome is not hardened after it being called so....suggesting hitting every tiny building, sirens tower and vehicles and yep...have seen the drome or other come down after all the big stuff was blackened, actively burning or flattened.
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Post by raf56bowman on Mar 21, 2021 23:25:41 GMT
That northern German drome was not hardened. It was later dropped, then on the next turn, the dump (final target) to the west of it was dropped by me and another Allied (I was too busy to see who, as we were attacked), and that ended the game. I think I may have dropped it as I dropped a bomb on a trench - I looked back to see the blood splatters after the game ended with the Allied win. This is exactly what I'm talking about. We can't assume a drome (or any target) is hardened just because all the buildings are down.
EDIT - I posted this before seeing your reply, Swampfox. All your points are well taken. This is a learning curve for all of us who weren't around when all this stuff was hashed out.
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Post by Swampfox on Mar 21, 2021 23:39:55 GMT
I didn't see anyone say any north drome was hardened. I do know with certainty that every component of the south drome was down and was hit extensively, including the trenches.
The key is that target hardening is an absolute fact of life in RedBaron3D. I can show you with repeatable certainty that target hardening exists if you have the time. It is called the 50% rule. I would then watch as you bomb, film it and you will never see the target announced as destroyed.....but you could apply the same argument that there is no proof it is hardened. Meaning, accurate attacking by experienced bombers where everything is hit a lot by multiple pilots over a two hour period means nothing.
As such, overcoming the well known game glitch is a worthy endeavor to at a minimum eliminate the need for the debate. Which is the bigger point.
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Post by raf56bowman on Mar 21, 2021 23:58:55 GMT
Technically target hardening was intended to prevent people re-lifing without returning to base after bombing at least 50% of any given target..they didn't realize it screwed the game when executed by one or more pilots being bad in a specific way. Can you fill us in (and perhaps remind me) on how this was determined? Did this intel come from a former RB3D designer, like the AFM plane uber blunder? |
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Post by Swampfox on Mar 22, 2021 0:19:56 GMT
Are you asking how the "50 % Rule" protocol was determined, applied and reproduced repeatedly with zero failure by two experienced analysts, or are you asking to prove that target hardening does or does not exist? IF it is the latter, then you would need to provide the protocol and proof that it does not exist.
I should add that the bombing tests for hardening were conducted on multiple types of targets from dromes to tent dumps like the south target. Once applied, zero targets could be destroyed. You can do the same test.
Attempting to destroy a small target with extensive bombing is the only evidence in favor of TH.
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Post by Swampfox on Mar 22, 2021 13:05:12 GMT
There is some depth to what I am trying to convey. For example, in the 50% tests we ran we could always easily destroy the target when we did not violate the rule, but when we did deliberately violate the rule, each time it was impossible to destroy the target nomatter how many times we attacked all guns, buildings, trenches, tiny tents and even vehicles...and siren towers....everything. That pattern establishes a solid database which overcomes the idea that the target is still alive...statistically. We accounted for the fact that occasionally a target will appear dead but is not. And the two of us, Wolfgang and I, always assume a target is still alive until EVERY component has been attacked after the obvious, and typically the required ones, are flattened, burning or blackened. Running such tests must always be done with all of the above being part of the protocol.
I am highly confident that south dump was down but not scored to to target hardening, having seen Zilski's assessment early and seeing and trying on my own...both having hit it hard even after the main components were flattened.
The "larger number of targets" solution when using the somewhat more realistic non-repair protocol is the best fix we have now. We can provide far more targets than we could take down in the prescribed timeframe.
S!
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...in the "good old days" i emptied a server with 20 people in, when me and rebel went at it.... ah memories. 